Outdoor Ontario
Off Topic => Anything Goes => Topic started by: Axeman on March 03, 2009, 10:40:09 AM
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I was wondering how others felt about the recent coyote attacks on pets in the Beaches...the position of the City seems to be that lethal removal is the only option. I found this upsetting. While I sympathize with the pet owners, we certainly would not lethally remove a person that committed the same attack...and how far are we going to go to control nature? We forget that we SHARE this planet with other animals and plants...
Many of the quotes that I have read from residents addressed the issue of safety. The fact is that while there are documented cases of coyote attacks on children, none have been fatal and there are FAR more attacks by dogs. This concept of killing any animal that kills a human is brutal and inhumane in my opinion -- this is not to say that I do not have a lot of sympathy for the victims of attacks but consider the number of animals that are hunted for sport and nevermind those that we kill for food...and of course those that are killed in accidents with cars and trains...those killed for bounty...
I agree there are times that lethal removal is the only option but it appears to me that this particular decision to remove these coyotes is made within the framework of hysteria, ignorance and emotion and is grossly disproportionate.
In the legal system, crime is primarily viewed as being committed against the state or society as a whole, and secondarily as against the direct victim. I don't see why it shouldn't be the same philosphy in the case of animals interacting with humans.
My view is that in this case, we should leave the coyotes alone and address the things that attract them to the area and perhaps control the attractants.
Certainly from the perspective of someone who is driven crazy by cat owners who let their cats roam at will, coyotes are great for control and I would welcome them in my parents neighbourhood. (Keep in mind the average outdoor cat has a lifespan of approximately 3 years and is most often killed by a car.) And then of course, as a responsible dog owner, it drives me crazy when idiots walk their dogs off lead, explaining that the dog is friendly...ignoring the fact that some people have an ureasonable fear of dogs and walking a dog off lead can ruin such a person's walk...coyotes may be helpful in curbing this behaviour too...and then there is the beauty of seeing something wild...hearing their howls...
Please, if you have an opposing view to mine, feel free to respond in a respectful and logical manner...
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I fully agree with you, my co-worker and I were talking about this the other night. How people choose to live by ravines and conservation area's and then freak out when nature gets to close. However when I brought it up to my husband he said "humans will always take presidence over nature". Of course this started a disagreement :D but when I thought about how the government are allowing the logging of the forrests, shutting down some conservation area's, building in endangered species habitat even the removal of urban pests(skunks, raccoons, foxes, etc) I realised that he pretty much hit the nail on the head with that statement. It's really sad, and I wish that they would be able to find a non leathal way to over come this issue, but reality is that these people are now afraid of where they live and the city is going to "take the threat away". I don't agree with the method, and these people are silly if they think that they aren't going to get more when the food source ie:mice,rats, bunnies, etc multiply out of control with the coyotes gone, but it is their property and if they want to co-habitat with rats what can we do. No offence is intended by my response and I'm sorry if you take offence as I am not in that situation and I'm just stating an opinion :D
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There's alot of money in that neighbourhood, so I'm sure they'll get whatever they want. The child card is being played to make sure the coyote's are taken out. If a child is small enough to have the unfortunate encounter, they shouldn't be left unattended in the first place.
The coyote's are doing what comes naturally to them. Can they be blamed if a plump Spot or Felix look to good a meal to past up.
What form of "lethal removal" is the City talking about using?
If the coyote's do get "removed" I'm sure it won't take too long for others to replace them.
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I reviewed a list of documented coyote attacks in North America and in some cases, the child was in fact supervised. A few attacks produced severe facial lacerations but again, no fatality. In each of these cases however, it appears that the community really did not give a flying leap about the things attracting coyotes to the neighvourhood -- many of the accounts referenced open garbage. It seemed as if the coyotes had lost their fear / respect for humans and had become habituated to human presence.
Of course, I would be extremely upset if my daughter were attacked by a coyote or any other animal. But I wouldn't advocate killing all coyotes (or whatever the animal may be). I have watched a number of interviews with people attacked by different animals -- sharks, bears etc. on Animal Planet and am always heartened by their refusal to blame the animal and their opposition to lethal control of the animal.
I in fact live in an area where coyotes abound and there are occasional reports of bears and even cougars -- a few years back a cougar had made a habit of hanging out at a local primary school during recess...no kidding ! I do take precautions...my garbage is always secure and she is always well supervised...its part of the price I pay for the privilege of being Mother Nature's guest.
Communities close to bear country use special containers. Might be a thought for the Beaches. They can afford it.
Coyotes have been a fact of life for Toronto and the GTA for a very long time. I have seen coyotes crossing Bloor St. (north to south) near Prince Edward St. There have been no reports, to my knowledge, of problems with those coyotes. It begs the question....what are these people doing to create the problem?
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and by lethal removal they mean killing them...apparently they won't tranquilize and remove because they say it will take 20 minutes for the sedative to take effect...and that another pair of coyotes will move in to replace them...I'm not sure why the replacement pair issue is not a factor in lethal removal...
My understanding of coyote biology is that they react strongly to selective pressure and have unusually large litters when facing strong lethal depopulation measures...how is that for a euphamism...coined it myself...lol...
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I understand what lethal removal means. My question was "What form" as in how are they going to kill them?
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oops...sorry....I guess tht was a bit of a "duh" moment for me...Well they said humane traps were out...so I can only guess they mean to shoot them...they considered shooting tranquilizer darts and ruled out the darts but not shooting.
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When coyotes were removed from my neighbourhood, (too many Fifi's eaten) they actually did not reclaim the area quickly. It has been several years now without them, and the cats are getting lazy again.
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Lethal removal is simply the best option. Unfortunate yes.....but not as tragic as an attack on a person.
Lets be realistic here. We are the top species, and we ALL enjoy the perks that come with it.
Telling people they should be more tolerant or sensitive if they live in a ravine area is unfair. Every person on this earth lives in a place that used to be wild and undeveloped at some point in time, and every person has displaced a variety of plants and animals regardless of where you live, or how you get to work, or what you eat, or what you wear, etc. etc. etc.
To suggest that coyote attacks should be tolerated because they "tend" not to be fatal is absurd. Why take that risk? A lifetime of physical and emotional scars is devastating......if this stops one attack, then it's well worth it.
I'm the last person who would want to harm an animal. I absolutely enjoy nature, and I am in awe at the beauty of the plants and animals that surround us. I treat it as a true gift, and really try to make the time to take it all in.
But I'm also a realist, and accept that sometimes we need to do things that are not so pleasant.
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Let's take a parallel for argument's sake: I live in a new residential development outside of Sudbury, have bears in my back yard, the new development has displaced them from x hectares of nearby land they used to call home, and they are now starving due to development killing off their food source. I keep my garbage on the back doorstep because I am lazy, and as a result, bears are showing up on my property. Okay to kill them then?
I saw the habitat these Coyotes are living in. People have dumped garden brush, branches, and otherwise practically put up a sign saying "free coyote lodging here". These seemingly innocent garden dumpings are asking for trouble, are against city by-laws (dumping on public land), and are common throughout the city, especially in ravine lots where it's easy to "chuck" stuff over the fence.
At the same time, construction is taking place all over the city, gradually displacing wildlife of all sorts, compressing them into the fewer remaining "wild" pockets of land they can survive on. These areas are close to residences, and therefore close to dogs, kids, and cats.
A few years ago near where I live, a sewer twinning project took place in the local ravine. They started down south and gradually destroyed the ravine as they dug it up to put in sewage pipes. As the work moved north, it forced animals including deer, coyotes and foxes northward. Eventually these animals ended up pushed onto and around airport property. They then became a danger to airplanes. Get out the 12-gauge, right?
Sorry, in my opinion our politicians pander to society a little too much and don't put enough forethought into coexistence with wildlife. Skunks or raccoons start appearing because people dump garbage all over the place? Shoot them. Housecats out eating birds get caught by coyotes? Shoot the coyotes.
I have holes all over my garden from squirrels burying peanuts. The peanuts were fed to the squirrels by my neighbours. Current logic would say to shoot the squirrels, when in reality, my neighbours are the problem.
If you ask me we should be able to do better than this. Just because Man is the most intelligent, and has managed to organize into a position of dominance over all other species doesn't mean it's right. It's about time people stand up and see this instead of constantly deciding that what's in our interests is what needs to be done.
"Oh dear, there's coyotes and foxes in High Park. I can't run my dog off leash. We must remedy this problem!". I beg to differ.
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My point is, every last person on this earth has benefited via exploitation......you and me included.
The thread topic is the coyote problem in the Beaches, and I simply offered an opposing viewpoint as suggested......generally speaking of course.
People tend to hoist themselves upon a podium, taking for granted and forgetting that they rest under a blanket of comfortable existence, but then are quick to point fingers when it's convenient.
Lets all get a grip here......don't forget that you're typing on a computer that is full of lead and mercury and arsenic that will end up in leaching in a landfill. (even if it's recycled) You are using electricity that has killed a fish in a dam or electrocuted an eagle or aggravated someones asthma. This is but one small example of the enormous impact we all have. Perhaps getting all righteous is a little hypocritical.
As I stated, I don't like the fact that these coyotes are going to be killed, but if it saves a childs face from being torn off, then it's a small price to pay.
Could we do better in the future, I hope so.
I'll post no more on this subject, as it can be argued ad nauseum. I respect everyones opinions, as there are valid points on both sides. This is just an unfortunate situation that needs to be dealt with in an unpleasant manner, that's all.
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I find in general that the population of wildlife in the city is if anything increasing. I think they are learning to adapt and even thrive in the city. There are more reports of deer, coyote, beaver and foxes then ever before. I n High Pk. we experienced a nice balancing of nature. 10 years ago foxes and red tails discovered the park and it's built in food supply of geese, squirrels and FiFi's. We had 24 foxes for a year or two. We still have foxes but made 3 or 4, Red Tails are resident. Coyote came alond and the same hoopla as the beaches started up, the city (wisely) did nothing (in this case by design) and coyote moved on, came back, left, returned. It's an accepted reality now that they come around every once in while. Peregrines have adapted very nicely to city life. In the end I think neighbourhoods can scream as loud as they like but wildlife isn't listening and they'll be back. Bears in downtown, well probably not, but occasionally as far as Pickering. I'm waiting for Elk on the Spit. ;-)
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Hey Halton Hills, for what it's worth, I wasn't directing my response at you directly, it just happened to follow yours, sorry :)
It's intelligent & healthy for people to discuss things logically trying to understand all the factors involved and learning as they go. It's watching the news reports on this particular situation, and how knee-jerk reacting fearful people arrived at "let's get rid of them" that bothers me the most. If killing the Coyotes is the best way to resolve the issue, so be it, but people should also be made aware that we have some responsibility to tolerate and coexist with other species, it's not our god-given right to eradicate anything that gets in our way.
Another hypothetical... Let's say a new road gets paved and it just happens to be right through a place that fierce snapping turtles or rattlesnakes usually migrate through in the spring to get to their mating grounds. Suddenly drivers and pedestrians, kids and dogs are all in danger, do we eradicate the turtles or snakes? This is the ongoing dilemma...
I'm no tree hugger or animal-rights activist by any means, but I do think our wildlife, nature and greenspace need better representation on an ongoing basis.
So, how about them Cormorants? :)
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It's all good..... :)
Sharing opinions and ideas is always a good education. It often brings to light some things we never thought of ourselves.
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Re: Halton Hills
There are far more attacks by dogs on people, and certainly many have been fatal. And yet bsl seems to stir up significant opposition.
The odds of a coyote attacking a person are slight. However, the probability increases with OUR behaviour. In most of the cases I reviewed (from a website), human behaviour encouraged coyotes to lose their fear of people.
Unfortunately, while we are the top species, this does not mean we have absolute right to rule. Rather, it imposes a responsibility upon us to co-exist and to be the caretakers of our planet.
There have been some pretty eloquent pro / con arguments on this thread ! Very enjoyable.
I live in a rural community and coyotes bare a bounty -- turn in their ears and you get $50. In the winter, many sportsmen enjoy hunting them down with the use of dogs equipped with gps collars. The dogs track the coyotes and the sportsmen track the dogs and eventually catch up with the coyotes. The rational behind the hunt, aside from the good fun of killing these animals for the thrill (coyote does not taste good -- even curried) is that they attack livestock. I suppose I have sympathy for those farmers who produce livestock for consumption...but I smack my head when its an ornamental producer eg. miniature horses. The funny thing is, I have never seen a coyote near my home -- heard them many times. I've only seen coyotes in the city.
BTW, for the record, I always hoped the coyote would get the roadrunner at least once.
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And HH, while my comment was in rebuttal to your earlier comment, it was in the spirit of fun and debate...wished it was made over pints.
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I live in mississauaga and we have had coyotes for years behind our house and they have never been a problem. This issue just shows the continued disconnect between people and nature.
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There is a continual fight in the Beach between people and dogs, so it's no surprise that there is a fight between people and coyotes. I read today that the neighbours are also at odds with each other as some of the neighbours are feeding the coyotes! Here we go again, yet another reason why people should not be allowed to feed wildlife!
I am an animal lover and feel very bad about the little dog that was killed. I also am very annoyed at cat owners who let their cats out unsupervised for many reasons. I never let my cats out of the house, they could get killed by a car or die because of injesting poison, whether it's pesticides in a yard or antifreeze from a car. They also use gardens and screen doors as their litterboxes which is highly unfair to neighbours.
The coyotes wouldn't be an issue if people would control their garbage and leave their cats inside. Take away all that food and they'll go elsewhere.
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Umm...I loved these...
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... it's built in food supply of geese, squirrels and FiFi's...
... (too many Fifi's eaten)...
Not sure I get it. This seems to be trivializing the death of cats or small dogs. Do either of you have pets?
(For the record, I think that if a small pet gets eaten by a coyote, it is most likely the result of irresponsible owners, not the "fault" of the wild animal.)
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My use of "Fifi" was just meant to be shorthand for small dogs and was not intended to be a trivialization, although I see now that it could be interpreted as such. I do have cats but they are 100% indoor only. I do not have a dog now but have in the past. Obviously I am aware of the emotional attachment that people can get with their pets. But that is all the more reason why one should be responsible with them. If you really care about your cat staying alive, it should not be outside. There is much less expectation of danger for a small dog, so I think some people have been very much caught by surprise. Hopefully most owners understand the danger and can change their behaviour to mitigate it. I don't believe there is any right to leave small animals outdoors unattended with implicit government guarantee that any threat to them will be eliminated.
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another pet peeve of mine...cat owners or people who feed feral cats...and have no regard for what they do to birds at a feeder -- and relying on the argument that it is the way the food chain works...except that these cats get fed...
Anyway, apparently the city is going to use paintballs and loud horns to scare the coyotes off....