How close is too close?
Outdoor Ontario

How close is too close?

Anonymous

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Given all the discussions that have taken place regarding this matter, I thought I
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Anonymous »


P1Guy

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Not sure if you opening a new kettle of worms here Attila, but I think you should be prepaired for some interesting questions to answer.

I don't believe that this subject will ever be resolved until some people are better educated about birds.

I would like to have you answer some questions if you don't mind, and I would like to ask some questions to the birders and photographers in the forum. It seems like your willing to spend in excess of eight thousand dollars on new photographic lenses. This seems like a lot of cash to put out for a hobby, and some people could use funds like these to finance a new car, or make a deposit on a new home or put their kids through school.



Firt off how long have you been a photographer?

What camera body do you presently own?

Have you ever taken photography courses?

Do you think that spending thousands of dollars on expensive equipment is going to make you a better photographer?

What is your reasoning for purchasing a long telephoto lens.

1. To stay in a comfort zone from the birds

2. To get better photos?

To the other photographers in the forum:

Why do you want to get the photos?

Self enjoyment, bragging rights on another forum or do you sell your photos?

Are you willing to put in the many hours and leg work to find you own birds?

Have you ever sat in a hide waiting for hours for a shot?

What lens do you think is a minimum in length for wildlife photography?


To the Birders

Who is the dumb ass idiot that coined the photographers as PAPARAZZI (which has just fueled the fire)

Why are a group of photographers termed Paparazzi, but a large group of birds is okay?

To Attila,

It seems that in January the OFO will be leading a field trip through the spit. I have seen groups as large as forty plus people, and have just read that eighty some turned out at the falls for a field trip. So I guess this is okay that a massive amount of people, many with walking sticks, bins, and cameras talking and looking for the birds is okay.

Or is this the frightening sight that you talk about that must freak out the birds?

Quote
Remember, these birds have very acute eyesight, so when they are looking at you, they see you as if you are only a foot away from them. Throw in the fact that any glassed surface, whether it be binoculars or cameras, is resulting in a reflection that the bird will perceive as another raptor. Even when we only wear sunglasses, the birds then think we’re these big things with really big eyes trying to get close to you. How freaked out would you be?

If they happen across a group of four photographers they don't know then I guess it's the Paparazzi harrassing the birds.

I have been in locations twice this summer where bird groups of 10 plus have invaided the area and later reported birds that I did not see all day long. Are they making things up? I was told that some have not so good eyes as they use to and that might be the case. But It also maybe swelled egos on the part of some, that they count more birds than last years count.

I don't blame Norm for not wanting to post his owl sightings, although I don't agree. But I can understand that there are many people that want photos, and looks but are not willing to put in the time and effort to find the birds themselves.

As you stated there are lots of other places to see such birds, but that would mean putting in the time. I myself enjoy looking for the birds myself and then the challenge of getting a good photo.

The problem in my eyes are certain people in the birding arena are dead against photographers due to what took place last winter with the Northern Hawk Owl in Saltfleet, Ontario.

At the end of it all the Hawk flew away, and no harm was done except for the sour taste left in some peoples mouths.

There are more snowy owls being hit by cars at the moment, then baiting birds.

And if someone in the birding community was to tell eveyone to feed any snowy owls you find because they are starving this would be okay?

And I think this is the real issue here, that the birders don't want to see the owls being baited. Funny though that we can feed birds with backyard feeders, and when a sick or starving owl is rescued what do you think the owl resuce's feed them, Cherrio's?

I don't agree with baiting birds for photos, but I myself would feed a starving owl if I knew it would help the bird. This is what I think is the real reason for not posting owl sightings and please correct me if I am wrong.

Man I would love to meet the idiots that came out with this labeling the photographers as Paparazzi. Hard to believe it comes from grown adults when you hear this kind of stuff. I know that a letter was sent out thoughout the birding community to discuss this matter, again only fueling the fire. I have yet to read it's contents but hope to have someone show it to me.

My suggestion to end all of this would be to close every birding forum so know one can report the birds. And the way it's going I don't think I will report any sighitng, cause once you do there are all kinds of people there the next day.

I would love to hear the other side of the coin on this, like why do you report birds?
What drives you as a birder to report all your sightings?

Don't take anything I say the wrong way, I just know a lot of people that are so fed up with this that they no longer post any sightings rare or not. This seems so unfair, but does not bother me a bit as I know that the birds are everywhere if your willing to look for them

More than my 2 cents, but my last two as I'm broke spending all my cash on photo gear.  :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by P1Guy »


Anonymous

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Not sure if you opening a new kettle of worms here Attila, but I think you should be prepaired for some interesting questions to answer.

Response:  And I
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Anonymous »


Kin Lau

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The term is "Paparazzi Birders", coined by Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron in the Oct 2007 issue of OFO News. That is in fact the title of the article itself.

It refers to _both_ photographers and birders.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Kin Lau »


accwai

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Quote from: "Attila"
[...]
Have you ever sat in a hide waiting for hours for a shot?  

Answer:  Yes, just like I’ll be doing this weekend out at the Spit waiting for the Coopers Hawk to take his hunting flight along a ridge that I know he frequents.  I’ll be waiting, in camo, and hope to get a great capture.

Dumb question: How does one take flight shot from a hide?

Andy
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by accwai »


Anonymous

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Accwai, let me assist you with some terminology if I may.

I meant to say that I would conceal myself in a position relative to the cover found along the trail and attempt to take a picture of the bird as it flies towards and by my concealed location.

Hope this helps, Attila
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Anonymous »


P1Guy

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Quote from: "accwai"
Quote from: "Attila"
[...]
Have you ever sat in a hide waiting for hours for a shot?  

Answer:  Yes, just like I’ll be doing this weekend out at the Spit waiting for the Coopers Hawk to take his hunting flight along a ridge that I know he frequents.  I’ll be waiting, in camo, and hope to get a great capture.
Dumb question: How does one take flight shot from a hide?

Andy


I quess you answered this question yourself Andy, do you think you can only get static shots from a blind?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by P1Guy »


P1Guy

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Thanks Attila, I would probably enjoy photographing with some one like you. You seem to understand the situation exactly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by P1Guy »


P1Guy

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Quote from: "Kin Lau"
The term is "Paparazzi Birders", coined by Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron in the Oct 2007 issue of OFO News. That is in fact the title of the article itself.

It refers to _both_ photographers and birders.


Thanks Kin, I did not know this.
Anohter article I would like to read some day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by P1Guy »


accwai

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Quote from: "Attila"
Accwai, let me assist you with some terminology if I may.

I meant to say that I would conceal myself in a position relative to the cover found along the trail and attempt to take a picture of the bird as it flies towards and by my concealed location.

Hope this helps, Attila
Thanks for the explanation.  Looking forward to your results.

Quote from: "P1Guy"
I quess you answered this question yourself Andy, do you think you can only get static shots from a blind?

Does that mean one can take flight shots from blind?  I thought blind is to hide ones movement completely.  Abrupt lens movement would draw attention to your location and is to be avoided.  Or is that understanding incorrect?

Andy
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by accwai »


ichiro17

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Photographic Equipment:

I use a 500mm f/4 behemoth from Canon coupled with a 1.4x tele and a 30D.  First, lets just say that this crop factor and lens combo is lovely for reach, but its still never close enough.  To get a chickadee full frame of the 30D you have to be 18 ft away.  For bigger birds, to get any sort of detail you need to be 60-100ft and hope they fly towards you.  The Northern Hawk Owl at the spit a few weeks back was awesome, but I never found myself getting close enough.  However, I didn't encroach (too much, I hope) and kept my distance.  If any of you know the xxD series, then you'll know what I mean when I say that the owl was about as large as the circle around the centre autofocus point.

However, as much as I want that snowy owl shot, I will never bait the birds.  It takes the fun away from it and it ruins it for the wildlife.  

That being said, I did miss the perfect photo opportunity when the hawk owl went in for a dive and dove 40 ft in front of me, then came out and flew directly at me before turning off.  Missed it, and still unfortunate that I didn't get any shots.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by ichiro17 »


P1Guy

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Quote from: "accwai"
Quote from: "Attila"
Accwai, let me assist you with some terminology if I may.

I meant to say that I would conceal myself in a position relative to the cover found along the trail and attempt to take a picture of the bird as it flies towards and by my concealed location.

Hope this helps, Attila
Thanks for the explanation.  Looking forward to your results.

Quote from: "P1Guy"
I quess you answered this question yourself Andy, do you think you can only get static shots from a blind?
Does that mean one can take flight shots from blind?  I thought blind is to hide ones movement completely.  Abrupt lens movement would draw attention to your location and is to be avoided.  Or is that understanding incorrect?

Andy


Sorry Andy, I read that wrong I guess the first time. Yes you can get flight shots from a blind. There are different kinds of blinds, doghouse style, and camo covers you drape over yourself. And even good camo clothing works well to hide yourself.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by P1Guy »


P1Guy

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Quote from: "ichiro17"
Photographic Equipment:

I use a 500mm f/4 behemoth from Canon coupled with a 1.4x tele and a 30D.  First, lets just say that this crop factor and lens combo is lovely for reach, but its still never close enough.  To get a chickadee full frame of the 30D you have to be 18 ft away.  For bigger birds, to get any sort of detail you need to be 60-100ft and hope they fly towards you.  The Northern Hawk Owl at the spit a few weeks back was awesome, but I never found myself getting close enough.  However, I didn't encroach (too much, I hope) and kept my distance.  If any of you know the xxD series, then you'll know what I mean when I say that the owl was about as large as the circle around the centre autofocus point.

However, as much as I want that snowy owl shot, I will never bait the birds.  It takes the fun away from it and it ruins it for the wildlife.  

That being said, I did miss the perfect photo opportunity when the hawk owl went in for a dive and dove 40 ft in front of me, then came out and flew directly at me before turning off.  Missed it, and still unfortunate that I didn't get any shots.


This is the reason we keep going back imo. A missed shot is like a bad putt in golf. It seems Ichiro17 that everyone that see's a 500 or 600mm lens think they are telescopes. An easy way to make someone with binoculars understand this is to divide the focal length by 50. So a 500mm lens is 10x Zoom, and most of us know that a good pair of bins can see further than the lens can.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by P1Guy »


ichiro17

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Yup I know.  Reason being that the bins aren't worried about resolution and if you were to strap a camera to them then they would resolve almost no detail on a sensor.  Its sad that people have these misguided ideas.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by ichiro17 »


adonbirder

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I'd like to answer a couple of the birder questions you asked, give some more insight, can only help mend fences the more we know how each side thinks

-It seems that in January the OFO will be leading a field trip through the spit. I have seen groups as large as forty plus people, and have just read that eighty some turned out at the falls for a field trip. So I guess this is okay that a massive amount of people, many with walking sticks, bins, and cameras talking and looking for the birds is okay.

Or is this the frightening sight that you talk about that must freak out the birds? -

The Niagara trip can have alot but take in consideration you are just standing by the river looking at gulls and whatever else flies by, won't be encroaching on any birds. I've spent many hours staring and learning about gulls on the Niagara river at different locations, have seen over 10 types in 1 good winter day. Can be very frustrating for some but rewarding for others.
The OFO trips can be quite huge and are def not for all people, more people will mean more noise so harder to listen to songs and more likely to spook birds. The leaders though for the trips are some of the best birders you will find anywhere and know their songs and chips and calls extensively which is how you get to be a more advanced birder. Learning calls and songs saves much time in identifying and can really boost the amount of birds on a trip.

-I have been in locations twice this summer where bird groups of 10 plus have invaided the area and later reported birds that I did not see all day long. Are they making things up? I was told that some have not so good eyes as they use to and that might be the case. But It also maybe swelled egos on the part of some, that they count more birds than last years count. -

There are birders who's eyes are failing them but they have decades of experience and like stated in answer above when you learn calls and songs it makes all the difference for a trip list. Not all birds listed were seen, some were just heard as flown by or wouldn't come out of some bad undergrowth. Also diff times of day make huge differences, most birders like to go early in the morning as this can be best time for warblers and other migrants, also evening can be quite good too. Birds move around and migrate so there are different birds in the same area even in a day.
The little park here in Oakville i like to bird in i've seen and heard entirely different birds in the evening than ones i'd seen and heard in the morning.

-The problem in my eyes are certain people in the birding arena are dead against photographers due to what took place last winter with the Northern Hawk Owl in Saltfleet, Ontario.-
Problem was wayy before that ,when the owl irruption year was on. Some photographers (and birders) were getting too close to Great gray and other owls who need to sleep during the day so could hunt effectively at night.

-At the end of it all the Hawk flew away, and no harm was done except for the sour taste left in some peoples mouths.-
The hawk-owl in grimsby did not fly away ,it was predated on. It never got a chance to get back north

-My suggestion to end all of this would be to close every birding forum so know one can report the birds. And the way it's going I don't think I will report any sighitng, cause once you do there are all kinds of people there the next day.-

Forums can be useful in teaching people how to interact around wild birds and gives the chance to see rare wildlife we might not otherwise have enjoyed. There are so many people who want to see the rare wildlife and enjoy it and it can be a positive experience for the people and the wildlife if handled right. I try to gently hint when someone been too long or getting too close to a bird, let them know why this could be injurious to the bird. Almost everyone i've come into contact with, birders and photographers have been understanding and move on to look for more birds or stop moving forward.

I like to post sightings so other people can also have the same chance to see the neat wildlife that is right in our area, too many people still don't realize how many great spots are around locally and how productive it can be (even though bird numbers are wayy down from the past). I have for the last 2 yrs now been getting more into photography as i want a crisper photo for myself of the birds i see on my jaunts locally and all around North America, good way to show what you have seen if you are birding alone is a camera, also comes in very handy for those tricky brown jobs i can still have probs with or juvenile gulls :)
Wrote more than i wanted to write but i believe strongly in this subject. Most birders (as in me) and photographers i have met have been courteous and nice to be around, don't let a few bad apples on both sides ruin this great hobby for you.

See you all out Birding and Nature Photographing

Andrew Don
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by adonbirder »