Petition to Cease the Baiting of Raptors in Ontario
Outdoor Ontario

Petition to Cease the Baiting of Raptors in Ontario

Anonymous · 16 · 10409

Anonymous

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As we all know, this has become a very contentious issue for all who have an opinion on this matter.  I want everyone to know that before making this post, I ensured that I had approval from the Management of this board to post it so long as I didn't ruffle any feathers.

So below is the link, and if you choose to look at it, feel free.  If you feel to sign it, feel free.  If you feel to criticise, feel free.  

The sole reason I am doing this is to protect the birds.  My goal isn't to pit photographers against birders, as I belong to both groups.  Some may argue that I should back up the petition with statistics, but here's the rub - there aren't any because nobody, ever, has ever baited birds to see just how many will be killed in circumstances surrounding baiting.  My stipulation here isn't that the mice used to bait the birds kill the birds when they injest them; my stipulation is that the act of baiting isn't beneficial to raptors.

Petition to Cease the Baiting of Raptors in Ontario
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Anonymous »


P1Guy

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Attila this is the first part of your petition

Over the last decade there have been a growing number of circumstances in which both bird watchers and bird photographers have been using mice purchased at pet stores in order to lure (or "bait") raptors (also known as birds of prey) closer to them for the purpose of either photography or observation

1. You yourself on this forum in another post claim that you are new to birding as of the past two years. Then how do you know that baiting has increased over the last ten years?

Has someone been giving you this information?

2. Have you seen a bird watcher bait a bird, as I have never witnessed this.

3. You seem to be talking about owls here, or I am I miss guided?

For your information, owls do not fall under the family of raptors, but are a family of there own. I have never seen or heard of anyone photographer or birder bait a hawk. It seems you are a bit new to this, if you do not know this.

There are thirty-two species of diurnal raptors including hawks, ealges, kites, Northern Harrier, and Osprey that nest in North America.

Owls are also known as birds of prey but most owls hunt nocturnally and are placed in the families Strigidae and Tytonidae
for typical owls and barn owls.

You don't state any facts of how many birds have perished due to baiting.
You say no study has ever been conductated, so why do you believe that birds are perishing due to baiting?

You don't give any locations, times or dates to back up your claim of said baiting.

If you thought that feeding a mouse to a starving owl would save the owl would you feed it?

The owl rescues feeds thousands of feeder mice to owls as that's what owls eat. I don't hear of any dying because of this.
This is from the page of the owl foundation

"What do the owls eat?
Most of the owls at TOF are fed laboratory-bred mice. Many of our larger species also eat rats and quail. We also house several insectivorous owl species that are fed large mealworms."


Feedere mice are feed to exotic pets, and they are not dying from eating them.

I don't understand how you think you can have a new law introduced with out facts.

They put up netting on the Bloor viaduct bridge to stop people from jumping off. If no one was jumping off how could you convince them to put up nets.  This is how your claim sounds to me.

Here is the second paragraph you wrote:

While there is no definitive number which can be arrived at, the act of baiting can be indirectly linked to the death of several species of raptors.


"Serveral species"
What species do you know that have died indirectly?
Where, when and how?


Here is a link to the Simcoe board and some interesting reading for anyone thinking of signing the petition. Look under the Orillia Hawk Owl posting.

http://www.b2g4.com/boards/board.cgi?us ... atureBoard

I see you and Norm are trying to send this petition to all sites I and others go to to see bird postings.

Not sure what got your knickers in a knot, but would love to know this.
It seems to me that you have nothing better to do, and although you think your helping to save the birds your not.

The new windmill farm on Wolf Isand will probably kill more migrating birds than anyone feeding mice to birds.
If you read the postings on Ontario Birds, you will see the Boreal owls are being killed in Owl woods. This is not due to someone feeding them mice, but most probably another raptor. Snowy owls have been reported many times being hit by cars, and the Orillia Hawk owl was reported hit by a car, and NO proof of baiting has been found.

If I was a judge and read your petition, I would surely throw it out for wasting the courts precious time. Or I may ask you to come back with some proof and then re-evaluate your claim.

I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER, AND REALLY DISAPPROVE OF YOUR ANTICS.
I DO NOT BAIT BIRDS, AND KNOW MANY GOOD PHOTOGRAPHERS AND BIRDERS ALIKE, AND YOUR ACCUSATIONS HAVE NO FOUNDATION, AND I RESENT THEM.

Your time would be better spent, gathering proof and having the very very few that are baiting birds reported to the ministry, rather the paint everyone with the same brush as Norm would put it.

If people could mind there own business the world would be a better place.

I can gaurentee you that I have spent more hours in the woods waiting to see a bird in the freezing cold than most birders or photographers, and when I read junk like this that is unfounded and with no substiance It gets me very upset. I and others like me love the birds, but the politics are getting out of hand.

You are starting to remind me of the infamous person that bears your name.

If you have read this far, please just tell me why you are on a crusade to pit people against each other for the mistakes of a few, and I say a few people that bait birds?

Regards
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by P1Guy »


cloaca

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Quote from: "P1Guy"
For your information, owls do not fall under the family of raptors

For your information, there's no such thing as "the family of raptors."

Quote from: "P1Guy"
It seems you are a bit new to this, if you do not know this.


Try reading Schedule 7 of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, before you start correcting the guy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by cloaca »


P1Guy

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:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 08:36:21 PM by P1Guy »


Anonymous

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As I stated in the very first post on this thread....

"The sole reason I am doing this is to protect the birds. My goal isn't to pit photographers against birders, as I belong to both groups. Some may argue that I should back up the petition with statistics, but here's the rub - there aren't any because nobody, ever, has ever baited birds to see just how many will be killed in circumstances surrounding baiting. My stipulation here isn't that the mice used to bait the birds kill the birds when they injest them; my stipulation is that the act of baiting isn't beneficial to raptors. "

I've altered the petition to state this.

How do I know that bird baiting has increased?  People have posted it and first hand accounts of it have been witnessed more and more.  This includes photographers and birders, and as such both groups are addressed in the petition.  And no, I'm not just talking about owls - hawks as well.

You give a list of North American diurnal raptors - did I say that this would apply to those species you list or is it outlined in the petition that this is simply applicable to raptors identified in section 7 of the act which I reference?  To help you know what birds are on that list, here it is:

Eagle, Bald  Eagle, Golden  Falcon, Peregrine  Goshawk,  Northern Gyrfalcon  Harrier, Northern  Hawk, Broad-winged  Hawk, Cooper
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Anonymous »


Craig McL

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Bravo Attila for putting this together and having the guts to post it hear for all to reed...

I see that 31 people have sinned it all reedy witch is a good # to start off with ! I will be # 32

I personally do not think that you have to  give answers to Questions like others have posted on this sight espssaly when they don’t add there name to there rants  and like all of us hear don’t have to reed your post !

So keep up the good fight !

Craig McLauchlan

O ya and gess what I am in to  stamp collecting also hahahahahah  :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Craig McL »
Excuse my spelling and Grammar, I am Dyslexic thank you.


P1Guy

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:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Protect the birds from who?

If you want to protect the birds, that why don't you spend your time fighitng the developers who clear land for houses where birds and wildlife once lived.

Also don't try and turn the tables, I never questioned the integrity of Bob on the other site or said he was lying.

Why don't you go back and read that he said the owl had a meadow vole in its talons when it met its maker. And it looks like it was hit by a car. Even though Bob states he saw baiting with his own eyes, he does not state that the bird died due to baiting. As this would be unrealistic to try and proof that baiting drew the bird out to the road. All the highways around the province have birds flying over them all the time. Hawk perch on light standards on the QEW, and 401 all the time.

Ah, then there is the photo of the dead Hawk Owl. If such a photo exists, why then when people asked to see it was it not posted for proof. Maybe they say the Owl is dead just so people want go up there anymore, or have you not considered this?

You seem to make things up as you go. Like changing your petition as you go.

And I will still say that you don't have any facts to back your claim. And your come back of no one has done a study is rubbish. There  is no need to do studies when no birds are perishing due to bating. Only you and some others seem to think this is happening. If it is truely happening, then prove it.

Sounds to me that your a lonesome sole that wants attention, and someone must have wronged you or something.

How can feeding a mouse to a raptor cause it's death if it does not die from ingesting it as you say.

You should give a call to some transport companies that go coast to coast. I believe you will suprised to hear how many truckers have hit owls due to the way they hunt their prey. They swoop low and come up in front of cars and trucks all the time. Maybe your time would be better spent developing some kind of whistle, like the deer whistles used on cars so Owls won't fly up into cars and trucks.

How many birds die in Toronto flying into glass buildings. Far more that have ever been baited.
So why don't you lobby local goverment to put into law that no more reflective glass be used in buildings.
I am sure you can start a petition and label it for the building department of Toronto.

Show me proof that birds are dropping like stones as you seem to think, and I will graciously bow out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by P1Guy »


Carl-Adam

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I am against baiting but I think we need some hard evidence that it is dangerous for birds such as bating near a road.. I personally think it makes pictures look tacky.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Carl-Adam »


Joe

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It seems no one is in favour of baiting.  I think Attila's just trying to help.  'Crusade to pit people against each other...'?  Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  If you're annoyed P1Guy, maybe keep to logical, well thought out points, supported by research (as you both have made), not insults.  It gives more credibility to your argument, and that will help us all get more from the debate.  Just my opinion.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Joe »


Axeman

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I enjoyed reading PI's response, until the paragraphs following "not sure what got your knickers in a knot". After that it became insulting and I was easily able to dismiss the entire response.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Axeman »


Lee

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I'm glad someone has decided to do this.  It may not do a thing but I'm tired of people who won't leave animals alone.  Look at them from a distance but leave them be.

I've mentioned this before, there is a webcam in BC on an eagles nest and people figured out where it was so they started going there daily with chicken and salmon so they could get a picture.  It tells the birds that food is plentiful and easily obtainable when in fact, that's not the case.  When these people tire of their hobby, what happens to the birds?  They won't have food readily available to feed their young.  I, as well as others, wrote to the ministry of wildlife in BC but never received a response.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Lee »


Anonymous

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Maybe time to refresh this thread, given that some people are expressing an interest in the topic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Anonymous »


norman

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I've posted before about a great grey being baited by two wing-nuts at Duffin Marsh -- this was about thirty years ago, and I couldn't believe what i was seeing ...

Running a mouse through a hook and casting it on fishing line, these two jar-heads brought the bird in for there "money shot." The bird was rescued and sent to the McKeever Rehab; it was emaciated, and had a bit of buckshot in its facial disks. I believe it survived.

I've dabbled in photography, and I wouldn't consider using dying animals to get a purdy pitcher. I've made hundreds of field recordings, but never resorted to playback to bring in species; it wastes their time and energy. I have a few noises I make to get a better view of a songbird already in close. My aunt shrieks a bit, but she has issues.

If anyone here is defending killing things to get nice images, I suggest you talk to a therapist and double your meds.

Thanks so much,

--nb
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by norman »
"If John Denver wasn\'t already dead, I guess I\'d have to kill him."


norman

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Still a problem.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by norman »
"If John Denver wasn\'t already dead, I guess I\'d have to kill him."


norman

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I got a really good shot of a Swainson's being strangled by a fellow with piano wire .... just before playing him "Howie Mandel" DVD's -- if you're interested.


--nb
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by norman »
"If John Denver wasn\'t already dead, I guess I\'d have to kill him."