secrets,baiting,and hello

[jerjack]

:?  :?  otay, sorry  this is a helluva way to start off being  a member. have followed this site  for  ages and  feel like friends to all ive  met afield and at various sightings, i  am relativealy new to the  birding  world having logged about  7 seasons so far and  alas i seem to be  a bit  confused. i thought the point of having a birding  family, was to share our finds?
we have reached a point now of  hiding  birds we found, so only a few select get to enjoy  them or  photo them? for the  past 7 yrs that i have  birded, mostly with jim fairchild,  rip, we   shared what we found with everyone who loved  these  feathered friends. this year seems to be  mired in tales of photographers harassing birds, baiting, and  generally  being real doorknobs. went to sir  sams  recently and   ran across 2  idiots baiting a kestrel with a store bought mouse hanging on a branch off their tripod, , we shall not say  the words used to them on here but i must have made them nervous  , they moved out shortly afterwards, hopefully one day i will get names of these 2  weasels,, we need to work together to abolish these practises, not cut off peoples  rights  to view, we also need to clarify with  conservation and  proper authoritys as to  whether  baiting  is  legal or not. there seems to be  too much  variance on  this practise. ok denis, enjoyed all your shots'  but the secret part  irked me , i can understand the idealogy and the dont tell anyone  from a  protection  mode , and also  from a honor standpoint, but  if this  continues, where  we gonna end  up here everyone?? i saw a great rare bird today  but  sorry i cant tell you  where it is, because im afraid  everyone is gonna scare the  bird  and so i gonna keep it  a secret from everyone?
we need to  stick together , report  the unsavourys, but not to  deny the ones that love to see' or  watch ' or photograph our friends.okay i vented, and  probably alot of yall disagree with  this , but i put  it out there, i  for one will continue the practise  of  sharing  my  finds with everyone,95 per cent of the  birders i met are caring ,lovely people , united in a love  of birds and wildlife, i will not deny the  whole  bushel of apples because a few of them are rotten. good birding  foks, keep the  great pics coming.

[MEGHAN]

Hello there and welcome.
I for one agree with everything you have stated.
I would love to find and photograph a Hawk Owl, or any other bird I had not had the true joy of seeing. (getting a photograph is a bonus)
On the other hand I cannot judge nor do I hold it against anyone who wishes locations to remain "secret".
I can also understand why people do not wish to reveal locations based on what I have read here, on this forum, and on many other websites, blogs and other forums.
That being said, I don't think I would have even ONE photo if not for the kindness of people posting sightings including locations.
From Great Blue Herons at Humber Bay to Snowy Owls in Keswick to Wood Ducks on the Don River.
I know for a fact I would not just wake up one morning at 3:30am and say to myself " I think I'll drive 500KM's today and see if ANYTHING is out there" It's just not possible in my limited experience and knowledge of this new found hobby. So thank you all.
I thank everyone who has ever pointed me in the right direction. I thank everyone for their tips and advice.
All of you are the reason I have the pictures I have.
Nature is here for everyone. Not just the one that gets there first.
But it is the "nature" of some to go to far.
There have been many, many topics posted on this forum and so many others on this subject.
It will always continue to be a topic as long as there are people out there that cause us to discuss.
What do we do?
Horde information, discoveries and location?
Is it fair?
We all have life list birds we would love to see.
Should we be denied this because someone thinks "we" will go to far to see it?
Are they the only ones who should have access and be able to see and photograph such bird?
I don't think so.
Should we keep secret a location for the benifit of the bird?
Thinking it will become stressed, harassed or possilbe harmed. (obviously not on purpose but indirectly)?
I would have to say yes.
But should I go around thinking this is what's going to happen everytime I tell someone where something is?
I would have to say no.
I think what people need to do is just use their common sense
If you cause a bird to move...you are too close!! Period!

If this VERY simple rule is followed then why can't we ALL enjoy what nature has to offer?

Meghan

[denis]

hello and welcome!
sorry if it irritated you,but i got the location,after i gave my word,that i wouldn,t tell anyone.and i keep my word! i dont want to keep it from the good people on this site,it,s the other people i,m worried about.i know for a fact that they check these sites,for bird locations,so they can take their paying customers,to get their photos.if anyone here,that i know wants the location,PM me,and i,ll gladly tell them.congratulations,new guy,for singling me out,and putting me on the spot.i shall post elsewhere from now on.wouldn,t want to offend anyone!
denis

[jerjack]

last nite i sent  a post in regarding my  views on a matter, this  morning i see denis reply to it,  i apoligize denis, as this wasnt  meant  to  condemn your actions, nor was it  an attack guided toward you, far from it, it  was   a step  to try to adress this  issue .  i guess my  wife is smarter than i , because she raised that point   in the  car as i drove her to work. btw   denis  truly i hate  your  photographs, they drive  me insane  with envy, rofl,  perhaps  one day  i may  be able to come  close  to  your  perfection, keep up the  good  work and smile,  this  was not an attack denis post

[denis]

jerry
we straightened it out,in a P.M. everything,s fine.i still think the way to go about it, is disclosing the locations to the regulars on this site, by private message only!that will keep the few that choose to ignore proper ethics in the field,out of the loop.it will go a long way in protecting these birds.the only other option would be to not post the pics.by the way i,m glad you hate my photos! LOL i hate them too,most days.i think, me  beeing my worst critic,is the driving force, that pushes me to improve,and having to learn all those "damm" manual camera settings.

[MEGHAN]

Denis,
I agree with people lurking on this site looking for birds and locations.
After you and Moira origionally posted the Boreal Owl photo from Amherst Island there was, almost immediately, a post on ONTBIRDS in regards to the sighting and photos of this Owl.
The link is here:
http://mailman.hwcn.org/pipermail/ontbi ... 23243.html
So what you have stated is very true.
I agree with you in your caution to publicly post locations of the rarer birds to our area.
PM's are a good way for us to get location info without it "going public" for the more unsavoury people to find these birds.
Meghan

[mr.sharp-photo]

just my 2 cents, since i've been on both ends.

the best example re: disclosing information is via the email blasts that are sent regarding bird sightings.
2 months ago, someone disclosed the location of snowy owls in Keswick. lo and behold, 2 weeks later, the same bird spotters noticed some dummies attempting to flush snowies out from their roosts and from fields in order to get a flight shot.
i've met other photographers who boast of attempting to flush birds/owls to get a flight shot.

personally? i sit and admire and can sit and admire forever if i had the time. no reason or desire to flush or disturb.

my rule is to send out info to people on here that PM me or people that you trust. if I am PMed, at least i can rat out that person if they break birding photography 101 rules.

and with dennis and the owl location: don't blame him. someone else asked him to keep it a secret. i've met dennis. good birder who respects others. its not up to up to post for the world to read when he was asked, for whatever reason, to keep the location quiet.

build up a reputation on this board with your postings and pictures, PM people to ask questions and you will notice mutual respect is built. some people give me great tips while others still won't share much.

[ravynne40]

i'm with Yogi on this one, Jerry welcome!

I think sometimes when we post a location, then later go back to find, markers, people in the trees shaking trees, it kind of disheartens us. and yes the location of the owl i had seen was posted to another list as well.
i became very defensive, i mean..honestly how would you feel is someone came into your home (and i view these trees as the owls "home") and shook your house so you would run out in fear? wouldn't you feel violated? i know i sure would.

for me its not a question of baiting /flushing is legal or not, to me is just plain disrespectful to the owls/birds themselves.
This is why we get large /long lenses right?

i would love to share information on findings etc. but at this time doing it publicly seems to be a disadvantage, and i agree with the "tell those you trust" theory might be a solution. I remember Yogi's post all too well and can so relate to what he was feeling.


Meghan, thank  you, You posted my feelings towards this in words i could not express at the time.

This is a terrific list/group and without it I would never be able to ID birds or share my info and learn about their behaviors AND make new friends!
anyways I;m running off for a walk!
happy birding!
Irene
(who wants to believe in the good of humanity)

[P1Guy]

Way to go Meghan, more people should think the way you do.

[Leslie]

While I'm not a lawyer, apparently "activities that are harmful to migratory birds" is banned under the federal Migratory Birds Convention Act, owls excepted, alas (my source: City of Toronto Migratory Birds Study, p 39).  Perhaps it would be appropriate to report offensive behaviour to a game officer, assuming you know where to find one in Southern Ontario.  It doesn't seem to be difficult to identify the perpetrators, especially given the number of birders armed with cameras, but it may be difficult to determine when bird watching becomes harmful to the bird.  A good idea or a slippery slope no one wants to go down?

[Greg Schneider]

Not that I want to play devil's advocate, but how would you consider feeding a bird to be a harmful activity? Edit: In hindsight I'm not sure what you're referring to - if it's flushing owls, I would agree.

[Luv2Bird]

New on the forum and to birding   Irene took the words out of my mouth. "This is a terrific list/group and without it I would never be able to ID birds or share my info and learn about their behaviors AND make new friends! "  

Moira , Jo-anne and Denis have been just super.  I agree with the "common sense" comments and the use of PMs for locations ..  will keep that in mind for future posts.

Isn't one of the reasons why we have this forum and take pictures,is to "share".   I for one love to "show and tell" and am enjoying this forum  and the regulars who post.

[Leslie]

In an honest discussion I welcome devil's advocates.
I hope you're not really asking how feeding harms birds eg white bread to the ducks in High Park, not really an appropriate foodstuf, increases the number of ducks leading to increased duck droppings leading to increased eutrophication of Grenadier Pond leading to loss of biodiversity. eg feeding baby raptors means they don't learn to hunt & so can't live independently.
More generally, keeping backyard birdfeeders full certainly "causes the bird(s) to move" (Meghan's definition--good one) in frequenting areas they might not otherwise, but is it harmful?  Good question, and one for harder-core naturalists than me.
More generally, I was inspired to write the comment I did because the discussion to date reminded me of schools-based talk about bullying.  Bullies bully because they can.  It's up to the by-standers (other birders, in this case) to "act" (which does not mean become a vigilante), and often they don't.