Camera + Lens Advice
Outdoor Ontario

Camera + Lens Advice

JW Mills

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I've been using a Canon P&S. I can post a reasonably good picture providing I do minimal cropping.
However, after seeing the superior image quality of other posts, I want more!
I've done a bit of research and have come up with these 2 choices, assuming I buy new:
 
Canon XSi with  EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM lens  ( $1300 )
Nikon D3000 with AF-S VR 70-300 f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED VR lens  ( $950 )
 
Here are my reasons for the above picks:
I have a limited budget at this time as work is dead.
I realize that the lenses may be a tad short for bird photos but I would like to start with one that also serves for general use. My thinking is that I can get a longer lens later, (back in the stone age I used a Canon AT-1 with 80 - 200  zoom).
 
Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by JW Mills »
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Michael Tam

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The choice of a 70-300 5.6 is a serious compromise for bird photography although it is intended also for general photography.  A dedicated Nikon 300 4.0 AFS, with the optional teleconvertor is probably a consideration to offer you the comparable image quality you are seeking. As for Nikon body, a used D300 will be a better choice than a new D3000 for better AF speed, rugged body and higher ISO performance.  For honest store guidance, I relied for the past 20 years on : http://www.downtowncamera.com/. Although it may not be your current plan, a long term view may avoid duplicating equiptment and expenses for the future.  Please see threads below for discussions on the subject:

http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00TgQP
http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00Vsti
http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00Vkfa

http://photo.net/canon-eos-digital-camera-forum/00St93
http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00Vpn1

Two informative websites for Bird and Nature Photography topics:
http://www.naturephotographers.net/birdphotography.html
http://photo.net/learn/nature/

Good birding and photography.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 04:03:28 PM by Michael Tam »


Kin Lau

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I would lean to the XSi, I've been using the Rebel series in our family for few years, and the current models are quite responsive. I was shooting next to a Nikon user with a D3000 + 200-400/4 (her D300 was in the shop), and she hated the D3000 and showed me why. Even with an amazingly fast AF lens like the 200-400/4, the shutter lag was painful, it was like my old 300D.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Kin Lau »


QWK SVT

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I cannot speak to the Canon offerings - they, unfortunately, never "felt right" in my hands.  I have a Nikon D90, and have been using the 70-300VR for birding, for the last year, or so...  Regardless of your decision, be sure to test any camera/lens you're thinking of buying and, if at all possible, bring a laptop with you, to really see what the outputs are like...  Also, pay close attention to the view finder - they are not all created equal, and you will find certain cameras have a FAR better one to assess focus, etc...

The Nikon D3000 is an entry-level DSLR, but don't let the term fool you.   The 10.2MP sensor tags up with an 11-point auto focus system (like my D90), which is okay for tracking moving subjects (like birds in flight), but you'll have to work to get good shots, and expect to lose some out of focus.  At 3 frames per second, though, the D3000 does only a decent job at capturing speedy subjects; faster would be better for flying birds.

Smaller size + lower cost means some compromises, when it comes to a DSLR.  The sensor is a few years old (though used in higher-end cameras back them); the 230,000 dot 3.0 inch LCD is okay; and the ability to manually control all options is quite limited.  This truly is a beginner’s camera, in many respects.  But, at it's price, there is good bang-for-the-buck, and perhaps the shortcomings are negated by cost.  If you can swing it, the D5000/D90/D300/D300s all handle high ISO better than the D3000 (better pictures in less than perfect lighting).  They all cost more, but also offer more "birding friendly" features, like faster frames/second (and the D300/D300s have a MUCH better autofocus system).  I found the D90 to be a nice balance of price and performance...

The 70-300VR is a very good CONSUMER lens, particularly for the price.  Sharper than most, and VR works very well.  The slower aperature will limit you in low light and there are some other compromises, such as some softness and the autfocus speed.  The lens is quite sharp in the 70-200 range, even wide open, but 200-250 takes a little hit, and beyond 250mm the lens is best stopped down.  Problem is, if you're shooting birds, you'll likely be @300mm ALL THE TIME, and still wanting for longer reach.  The lens will be best in good light, but one of the better bodies would allow you to use a higher ISO in darker conditions, too...  

Eventually, most come to the conclusion that a dedicated birding lens will be required...  I got there a while ago and starting saving...  Just this week, I picked up a Nikon 300mm f4 AF-S and a 1.7 teleconverter (stretching it out to 500mm f6.7).  I haven't had a chance to do any substancial testing, but can clearly see the difference is sharpness @ 300mm, and even with the 1.7tc on, @500mm.  This is the best birding option for those on a budget, as the faster/bigger glass is A LOT pricier...  

The 70-300VR is still in my kit, and will not be discarded.  For a trip to the zoo / larger wildlife, and general use, it's a perfect option.  For birding, the 300mm will be the lens of choice.  Here are a couple of 70-300VR samples (i have none from the 300f4, yet):





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by QWK SVT »


Kin Lau

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Quote from: "QWK SVT"
The Nikon D3000 is an entry-level DSLR, but don't let the term fool you.   The 10.2MP sensor tags up with an 11-point auto focus system (like my D90), which is okay for tracking moving subjects (like birds in flight), but you'll have to work to get good shots, and expect to lose some out of focus.  At 3 frames per second, though, the D3000 does only a decent job at capturing speedy subjects; faster would be better for flying birds.


Don't count on just those specs. A D90 is worlds better than a D3000... I could not believe how slow the D3000, this is from a hands-on test.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Kin Lau »


Brian Bailey

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Canon and Nikon both make excellent cameras and lenses.  (And both make some lenses that are far from excellent.)

Try a few models from both companies in the store and, if you can, in the field.  See which feels right to you.  The biggest decision is really which brand to go with.  This may be your first DSLR body, but will almost certainly not be your last.  Once you start investing in lenses and other accessories, you will be reluctant to switch brands.  I picked Canon 20 years ago.  When digital came along, maintaining compatibility with my existing gear made it an easy choice to stay with Canon.

The Canon Rebels are very capable cameras.  The Xsi is a particularly good bargain at the moment because it is being phased out.  (There are currently 4 different Rebels on the market.)

Both 70-300 lenses are very capable, versatile, and portable but neither will give you the optical quality of a big prime lens.  I have the Canon 70-300 and am very happy with it.  I use it for wildlife, insects, sports, and landscapes.  The quality is head and shoulders above my old 75-300 non IS lens:  not what you'd get with a 300mm prime, but at a fraction of the cost and weight.

BB
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Brian Bailey »
Brian Bailey
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Michael Tam

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Opinions will differ with individual taste and preference so long as one takes a careful long term planning.  One consideration to remember is that a consumer grade zoom at 5.6 will not be compatible with teleconvertor should one wish to extend the reach further. These websites may be helpful to assist your research further:

For digital body review:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs.asp

The best website for lens review:
http://www.photozone.de/nikon--nikkor-aps-c-lens-tests
http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos

To search the forum or post your question for your photo needs:
http://photo.net/community/

As with cost difference between the 70-300 5.6 VR vs. the 300 4.0 AFS (for Nikon):
http://www.downtowncamera.com/index.php ... ory_id=236
http://www.downtowncamera.com/index.php ... ory_id=235

You will love this but also need a pony to go with it: http://www.sigmaphoto.com/shop/200-500m ... x-dg-sigma      :D

Good birding and photographing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Michael Tam »


JW Mills

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Thanks everyone!
Your comments have been most helpful!
 
Kin, the consensus is to upgrade from the D3000 so that will have to be done.
 
QWK and Brian, your lens advise seems to mirror what I was thinking. The 70-300  is a good g.p. lens and a reasonable starter bird lens (going by QWK's pics). I knew I would be needing a longer lens but if I start with a good bird lens what do I use for general purpose? Based on my experiences of old I have no use for the shorter 'kit' lenses.
 
Michael, your points are valid unfortunately compromises have to made. As an example the Nikon 300mm lens alone costs the same as the Canon set-up . Add a body and I can't afford it , assuming I buy new.
I will visit Downtown Camera for their input.

FYI - The Canon AT-1 was all manual and I loved it! Sure you had to work harder for good shots but you learned photography. I upgraded to an A -1 which had manual as well as auto program modes for shutter speed and aperture. I never liked it and soon went back to the AT-1.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by JW Mills »
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Brian Bailey

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Two other useful sites no one else has mentioned:

For lens reviews:  http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/index.php

For reviews, informed opinion, and more:  http://www.luminous-landscape.com/  The site also has an extensive discussion forum.

BB
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Brian Bailey »
Brian Bailey
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Michael Tam

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Zed, congratulation that you have found what is right for you.  The building of a SLR system is a long journey but one has to take the first step.  In looking down this long path, one important factor to consider is the long term issue of Full Frame vs. Crop Frame sensors in a digital body.  70-300 5.6 (for Nikon, since I am not familiar with Canon) is compatible with both FF and CF sensors whereas the Nikon DX line and the Canon EFS line of lens are not compatible with FF body, depending on your future needs.  By thinking ahead, one could avoid disposing of all the DX/EFS lens in order to move from CF to FF bodies due to the crop factor.

When I purchased my first DSLR, it was a daunting task to review the Owner's Manual.  I found this somewhat entertaining but informative site very helpful to get started.  For the Nikon section, it has the Plain English User's Guide that saved the day before learning from the monotonous Owner's Manual:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/index.htm
http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/index.htm

Finally, for everyone to enjoy some of the best Bird Photography I have encountered:

http://www.naturescapes.net/portfolios/ ... s.php?id=1

Good birding and photography.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Michael Tam »


QWK SVT

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Just wanted to provide a link to one other site that should prove useful: http://www.photoprice.ca

You can check pricing from Canadian dealers, and it comes in handy getting a price match at Henry's (I like their service and return policy, but they are usually higher priced compared to competitors)...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by QWK SVT »