Baiting at Col Sam Smith?

[mr.sharp-photo]

I was out there today, albeit briefly.
On the western peninsula, close to its south edge, i saw the remains of a large fish (possibly a salmon?)
considering that the water around the peninsula is frozen solid and that only a small amount of snow covered the skeletal remains, i would assume that the fish wasn't dropped there by a raptor or seagull, nor did it walk from the water onto the peninsula for some sun.

I have no idea what someone is trying to bait with such a large fish (is the snowy owl there this year? i'm thinking the shrike wouldn't eat something so big), but it was both comical and pathetic to see the fish there for what I assume was baiting.

[feathered]

I noticed the fish as well. Maybe for one of the harriers? It was pretty big, though.

I'm almost certain I've seen a couple of photographers bait the shrike there before, or at least manipulate a kill it had already propped up somewhere so it was in a better location for a shot.

[mr.sharp-photo]

I noticed the fish as well. Maybe for one of the harriers? It was pretty big, though.

I'm almost certain I've seen a couple of photographers bait the shrike there before, or at least manipulate a kill it had already propped up somewhere so it was in a better location for a shot.

there's a dead half-eaten squirrel at Lambton Woods. I wondered how it got stuck in the crux of two tree branches - whether a raptor dropped it there or if it got stuck and died. now i have a 3rd possible answer.

[Rob'in'To]

Nothing would surprise me.  We did a walk with CCFEW last weekend at Humber East and someone was talking about a recent visit to Amhurst Island and noticed lots of dead mice along the trails...  none of which were eaten.  I'd suspect baiting.  Tisk tisk.  Big sign, from what I see in pics (never been to Amhurst), has the rules for visitors and baiting is a NO-NO.  This conversation was brought up after finding a dead mouse in Humber East.

I was there this afternoon in search of the Shrike once again (no luck).

I've seen the Squirrel remains in that tree in Lambton.

[mr.sharp-photo]

i've talked to a few of the "bigger" birders. i know for a fact that some of them (and some of the photographers who post regularly on this very website) bait. they also justify baiting, saying that birds of prey have a 25% survival rate, etc.

i've also seen those who compare it to having a bird feeder in your backyard.

i'm not an ornithologist, so i have my reservations about calling baiters out....but something seems wrong about baiting or leaving a large fish for birds to eat.  something also seems wrong about feeding the ducks at Lambton. but its ok to feed the chickadees at Cranberry Marsh?

[feathered]

I think the problem lies in the fact that if it is done regularly and in the same location, the birds will become accustomed to it and look for handouts instead of spending time hunting. Also, even the slightest bit of taming will put the animals at risk from the people out there who don't like wildlife and won't hesitate to harm them or try and capture them as pets (and here I speak from experience; I've seen the results of it). Raptor hunting success is quite low and mortality is high, but that's a necessity for keeping the ecosystem balanced, because in any stable system there are few top level predators. Fatten up all the raptors so none go hungry, and the population will eventually crash when the prey population can't sustain them anyway. I think chickadee and nuthatch populations are so high that any flux caused by hand feeding them is negligible - they also don't foul up the lake shore like the mallards and geese or seem to out compete anything else like the mute swans.

I see having a feeder as different because those birds probably wouldn't be present in your yard if you didn't have a feeder; you're not going out into the woods and setting up a feeding table, it's on your own property. In a way it is "baiting" the raptors, though, or at least the accipiters! Though they still have to work for it.

[Rob'in'To]

I get grief from some about having bird feeders in the yard and how the birds will depend on me forever now as they'd starve to death if I took all the feeders down and moved.  I highly doubt that would happen.  Would any creature not seek out food elsewhere if one source disappeared?  I also have read that birds may have up to 40 feeding spots in an area.  

Baiting is a newer topic for me.  I heard a couple stories about someone who baited a Hawk Owl, and as it went in to grab the mouse, which was on a road, a car came along and struck/killing the Owl.  I did a Google search and found bits on this, including a message board, with an argument between the photographer and a couple others who witnessed it.

The Duck feeding at Lambton, or most Duck feeding I see in my travels, is wrong (in my opinion).  Chunks of white bread just doesn't cut it for their diet, which is almost always what I see.  And worse so in the winter.  The lack of nutrients in the bread, and the Duck is filling up on this stuff, not giving it's body what it needs.  I found Wild Duck food at Petsmart, and it consisted of corn along with other things that escape me at the moment.  I only ever bought one bag and used it periodically through last summer.  I got swarmed at High Park and Mallards were literally eating out of my hand!  And I have heard even doing this is wrong.  I just did a quick search and this came up which is much of what I have heard....

Please do not give wild ducks any extra food, it can cause them to
congregate in one place where serious diseases like avian botulism and
others are easily transferred through droppings, which has happened several
times the past few winters in northern Illinois, causing large die-offs. It
also causes the birds to become dependent on human handouts and lose all
their wild character, and perhaps suffer needlessly if you or someone else
is NOT there to feed them in severe weather. Believe it or not, the ducks
are in the area because there is enough for them to eat already, and they
do not need any additions. If they run out of food they will fly somewhere
else.

Saw a woman with her children at Cranberry trying to hand-feed the Chickadees Cheerios and some exotic bird pellets (the multi-colored bits).  But she explained about peanut allergies with one of her kids.  We suggested black oil sunflower seed would give her better results...  or rather some results.

[P1Guy]

Maybe it's for a hungry birder to eat.
You should bring a hibachi down with you Mr. Sharp-photo so you can grill it.
Why does everyone assume that this is bait for something?

I would also assume that you are a little birder, if you had to talk to the big birders. Get a life and learn to mind your own business and the world will be a better place. I guess my bringing a bird feeder down would be out of the question, as that would be baiting the little birds so I might get a photo of a raptor attacking a bird eating at the feeder I put out.

You people really sound ridiculous going on about something so trivial as a dead fish, near a lake. wow

[mr.sharp-photo]

Maybe it's for a hungry birder to eat.
You should bring a hibachi down with you Mr. Sharp-photo so you can grill it.
Why does everyone assume that this is bait for something?

I would also assume that you are a little birder, if you had to talk to the big birders. Get a life and learn to mind your own business and the world will be a better place. I guess my bringing a bird feeder down would be out of the question, as that would be baiting the little birds so I might get a photo of a raptor attacking a bird eating at the feeder I put out.

You people really sound ridiculous going on about something so trivial as a dead fish, near a lake. wow

in the dead of winter.  :lol: but please, go on.

[jwm]

I must say that I agree with P1Guy.  I also don't see such a huge distinction between this and setting feeders up in your yard.  I see posts here from time to time rhapsodizing about the wonderful experience of having chickadees, etc. landing in one's hands and taking food.  Now that is questionable behaviour at best...who knows what type of person that unsuspecting bird will attempt to approach next?  Perhaps explaining that to the woman with her kids would have been the better choice?  But to "tisk, tisk" because someone drops a dead mouse on the ground, or finds a fish on the beach?  Please!

I doubt that the large fish was placed in an area that sees regular food deposits, so conditioning the birds to expect or rely on food there seems unlikely.  Frankly, if I found that fish, my first thought would be that a coyote had moved it there, but who knows?  

I have feeders in my yard, about two dozen or so in total.  My favourite feeder is the big 4-foot-square piece of plywood mounted horizontally on top of a 10-foot support post.  This is where I toss any convenient road kills, meat scraps, and dead mice and rats for which I set traps in my barn.  My yard list, thanks to this feeding station, includes Snowy, Barred, Screech and Great Horned Owls, Red-tailed and Red-shouldered Hawks, and TV's...and, no, I don't try to hand feed these, or any, birds in my yard.  In fact, by removing road kills from the roadways and using them here, I am reducing the birds' exposure to traffic and human hazards.

I'm sure that everyone here has the best of intentions, but let's try to maintain some perspective.

John

[angieinto]

Seriously? I can't believe the nonsense I am reading regarding "baiting" of birds on this form and the defense of it.

We all know, or the birders who care anyway, that when we refer to baiting in regards to birds what we're really talking about, and trying to say that having bird feeders up in your yard is the same thing, gimme a break.

People who walk around with long sticks, poking around in the trees during the day, looking for owls and carrying live bait with them to try to entice the owl from his sleep and rest he needs during the day, this is an example of the "baiting" we're talking about, and you know it. All for a stupid picture, it makes me sick.

We saw a guy recently at a park in Etobicoke doing just this, walking around with a big stick, poking around in the trees, looking for owls, all so he could get a picture. He didn't care that the normal cycle of the owl is to sleep during the day, to rest, so he has the energy to hunt at night. To compare this to having bird feeders in your yard is ridiculous.

[Greg Schneider]

There are definitely some big fish in the lake - I've seen some multi-foot monsters jumping out of the water at the spit in summer. The freeze up might have been responsible for killing fish, when I was there a week ago the other beach in that area was littered with smaller frozen fish and the mink was having a grand time carrying them all back to his den. Trying to stretch something like this to "baiting" is just trying to stir the pot IMHO...

[jwm]

angieinto, I totally agree that the behaviour you described, and which we all see frequently, is reprehensible.  However, poking sticks into trees to flush owls is a far cry from dropping a carcass on a frozen beach somewhere.  This isn't a black-and-white issue...there is an entire scale of grey here, and IMHO if someone had left that fish there, then that action is far closer to "bird-feeding" than to "owl-poking".  If a photographer had done that, and maintained a reasonable distance (perhaps 50 yards or more?) what harm is done?

It simply isn't possible to pigeonhole every single action as "good" or "bad".  Everyone must follow their own compass, and they aren't always going to be pointing in exactly the same direction.  Is everyone here actually cleaning and disinfecting their feeders as often as they should, or do some of us let it slide a bit in bad weather?  Should we then not have feeders?  I have watched some of Toronto's birding elite while they blundered and crashed through the underbrush after a bird, while I stayed on the trail.  In one case I called the woman on it, and she indignantly informed me that she usually stayed on the trail as well, and who the he** was I to ask?  I enjoy the bird photo forum on this site, and I'm forced to wonder if all of those photos were taken in a totally ethical manner...and whose ethics are we talking about?

This should be a discussion or a debate...not an argument.

John

[angieinto]

I do agree with you John, there is a large "grey" area when it comes to this. I promised myself I wasn't going to get wrapped up in these discussions anymore, but I just couldn't help myself, I care too much, and my short fuse got the best of me.         :evil:

[ravynne40]

I have seen many times over at Marie Curtis Park, dead fish on the banks of the Etobicoke Creek, especially in summer, we have many people that fish here and leave their catch behind..I have never once thought someone was baiting for birds...and I highly doubt it..maybe someone was trying to "ice fish?" God only knows and we can only speculate what happened, there are many things we cannot explain.

I think there is a fine line in the topic of "baiting"..and putting up feeders, are feeders baiting too? People have been putting up bird feeders and houses for EONS!!

What about the people that smear the suet over the trees at Lambton Woods, the feeding area near the River, where folks go and toss all kinds of food for the birds, I have seen bread crumbs, cracked corn, sunflower seeds and other miscellaneous stuff there, and yes..I took advantage and took photos when I was there while the birds feasted on the food...does this make me a bad person? I think not.
You can't control everything people do...sadly enough there will always be tree pokes, tree shakers and the defensive folk that ask..who the he** are you to ask as stated earlier...just because one is a seasoned birder, doesn't give them the right to poke and shake or distress a bird. But there is no way we can control it, we can call them on it as has been done in the past...but some folks never learn and keep on as if nothing happened.

I figured there will always be an argument between the bins and the lenses....the feeders and the baiters...it is an ongoing issue which will never be resolved IMO.


To argue such is a moot point, energies should be directed elsewhere to bettering and helping our wildlife to survive (that doesn't mean baiting!) It means get involved in your neighborhoods, take the initiative to keep our natural areas beautiful and full of life .....just a suggestion...trees and bushes and flowers...create an natural eco-system in your backyards if you have a yard..it can even be done on an appartment balcony(small size it)

I got involved last year in a few things at Sam Smith, tree planting, supported the bird festival which was awesome..and I would like to continue to do so in the future, time permitting, and people, let me tell you I had a blast!
I met the greatest people who really care for their park.

just my two cents

Irene