Baiting at Col Sam Smith?

[mr.sharp-photo]

angieinto, I totally agree that the behaviour you described, and which we all see frequently, is reprehensible.  However, poking sticks into trees to flush owls is a far cry from dropping a carcass on a frozen beach somewhere.  This isn't a black-and-white issue...there is an entire scale of grey here, and IMHO if someone had left that fish there, then that action is far closer to "bird-feeding" than to "owl-poking".  If a photographer had done that, and maintained a reasonable distance (perhaps 50 yards or more?) what harm is done?

It simply isn't possible to pigeonhole every single action as "good" or "bad".  Everyone must follow their own compass, and they aren't always going to be pointing in exactly the same direction.  Is everyone here actually cleaning and disinfecting their feeders as often as they should, or do some of us let it slide a bit in bad weather?  Should we then not have feeders?  I have watched some of Toronto's birding elite while they blundered and crashed through the underbrush after a bird, while I stayed on the trail.  In one case I called the woman on it, and she indignantly informed me that she usually stayed on the trail as well, and who the he** was I to ask?  I enjoy the bird photo forum on this site, and I'm forced to wonder if all of those photos were taken in a totally ethical manner...and whose ethics are we talking about?

This should be a discussion or a debate...not an argument.

John

but this is my point. i'm not stating that placing a dead salmon on a trail is necessarily right or wrong, since i don't know the exact circumstance. i'm also stating that i've questioned bird feeders and why they aren't considered to be wrong if baiting is poo-pooed.

i think the baiting that's wrong is the mouse-in-a-empty-bottle trick, or a mouse tied to a tripod or to a string. or the fake mouse tied to fishing line. something seems wrong with that. hand feeding a kingfisher kippers also seems wrong, and i've heard people say they've done this.

anyways....

[P1Guy]

Today I saw a juvenile trumpeter swan frozen in the ice. Should I have removed it, or left it there for the eagles and predators' that will feast on it only to survive another day?

The cycle of life carries on.

How does anyone know that the fish may have been caught by someone ice fishing that decided to abandon it?
Maybe it was someone that thought some birds or animals might benefit from it being left there.

I think I would rather see a person feed the owls, then chase them for photos as some birders and photographers do.
This only makes the owls or raptors use much needed energy in the winter, with no rewards other than the reward of a photo for the person flushing the bird.
At least if they are fed the replenish there energy need to survive the harsh winters when food supplies are low.

In all my years as a wildlife photographer, I have witnessed more birds being flushed by inexperience birders then photographers. Not to say that a lot of new photographers don't flush them, but this is just what I have witnessed. More and more people with small lenses that have to get close to get an image.

I wonder how many birders on this site that are against feeding the owls, eat the following:
Fish, Chicken, Hamburger, shellfish?

Myself I am a meat and potatoes type of guy, and never dwell on the fact that they slaughter these animals so I can survive.

Have any of you ever caught a fish, and put a sharp hook into a worm only to later rip the barbed hook out of the fishes mouth?
I guess because the worm has no eyes people can't relate to them as living creatures similar to rodents.

Is it okay for your cat to catch mice or small birds when you let fluffy out in the backyard?

How many of us have swatted and killed a bee, or fly or a mosquito never giving a moment's notice that you killed one of gods creations.


Sorry if I have offended anyone, but lets use this forum to post bird sighting which is the reason we all come here.

[MikeO]

I agree with you P1Guy... In all my years of birding the vast majority of flushing & flashing birds is done by inexperienced birders or people with point & shoot cameras. Someone with a 400-500mm lens wouldn't be in the birds face.

Anyway about the fish on ice... For one minute did anyone bother to think it may have been plucked/dropped by an Eagle? They do that all time with heavy payloads or while being chased by other Eagles. Could also be coyote, mink, otter, etc... Either way, hopefully it feed wildlife during the harsh weather in the last week. I would have taken a photograph had I seen a Shrike or Eagle dive on it!

To the person who also mentioned a squirrel being wedged in a tree... This is a regular practice for owls to stash food when they can't consume it or maybe could have been a hawk that was flushed by a passerby and left without it's meal. You really should spend a bit more time reading & watching nature at work before accusing someone of baiting. I don't think it would make for a good picture having a bird struggle to land on a frozen piece of meat wedged in a tree... I will give the benefit of doubt that a photographer would not have staged that scene. Not that I am photographer.... Just saying.

[Rob'in'To]

The Squirrel up in the tree in Lambton has been there for many weeks now.  I'd absolutely go with an Owl/Hawk wedging it in there for easier eating or stashing...  that is what I thought the day I saw it and nothing else has ever crossed my mind.  

I only brought up the mouse comment since this baiting topic was started.  And because one was seen in a recent bird walk, it prompted a person in the group to bring up a recent visit to Amhurst Island and seeing a number of dead mice.  I haven't given this topic of baiting a whole lot of thought since I've not witnessed it.  But, when there is a big sign on this privately owned property asking people to not bait the Owls among other rules/requests and a person is choosing to do otherwise...  that's not cool.  I have never been to Amhurst Island and hope to one year.  It would suck if the owners decided one day to not share this land with others due to the actions of a few.  Hence my "tisk tisk".

[mr.sharp-photo]

to posters like P1Guy who misconstrued my initial post and then have the nerve to toss insults at posters that don't share his opinion:

i'm all for having intelligent discussions. but there's no reason to start to insult posters and tell them to join bible study groups if they have a problem with something that you believe in. if your goal is to educate posters on feeding/baiting, then you have to at least attempt to deliver your message in a way that would garner some respect. so kindly tone it done 3 or 4 notches.

thanks

[Reuven_M]

First of all, I doubt someone would have put the fish there for bait. More likely an eagle or coyote put it there.

About 2/3 of P1Guy's post is irrelevant, but I do agree that baiting is no worse than chasing an owl for a shot, and possibly better.
And baiting is not necessarily universally bad. If someone was to go up north somewhere in the middle of the woods and bait an owl, I don't see what the problem is. The problem is when there is negative effects from attracting birds close (highways etc.) or making birds tame (predators etc.). Baiting is really no different than birdfeeding, it is just that it is a lot harder to avoid the negative effects, and many don't do so.

There is nothing wrong with baiting, as long as its done responsibly.

[thouc]

Great concluding statements, Reuven.

[egret]

Hello:

I saw the post
re the squirrel in the tree

and 3 nites ago
saw a black squirrel
in a bush.. i was rather shocked
how did it get there I wonder
right in the crux of it

(


Egret