"Birders" against "bird photographers" =

[mr.sharp-photo]

hey,
due to the debate that's gone on here - http://outdoorontario.net/birds/phpBB/v ... php?t=3976 - I've decided to stop posting my birding pictures on this website.
its a personal decision that i'm going to stick to indefinitely.
its a shame that some posters on this board are interested in labeling all bird photographers as being disrespectful, and then likely visiting this website and others to see pictures we take of the birds they love.
while i love seeing your photos and reading your comments about my photos that i post, it does upset me to hear of non-photographer birders going out of their way to not share their bird  experiences with any birders with cameras.

good luck, photographers.

[Misty01]

that really sucks that you won't be posting your pictures, your GBH shots this summer would always brighten my day... pluss I think I will always remember your photo of the hummingbird It's very sad to see that you will not be posting and yet I fully understand why. Meghan and I experienced the situation you are describing when we went to Thickson's woods in Whitby. There were two gentlemen with a telescope but no camera watching birds {when we walked up and tried to be friendly and ask about the area and the morning as we had driven about an hour and a half} they basically pointed up the road and told us where the entrance was then turned around and ignored us. Which didn't really matter as we found what we were looking for as Meg and I are slow walkers   I am sure I have come to close to a bird with out realizing it, I have been startled by a bird interupting my fishing hole, but people need to relax when it comes to picture taking. It's not like we are five and decide that we want to go swimming with the mallards   I hope you will return again and will miss you while you are not posting and I hope that you still visit the site to view others photo's as I and I am sure other board members  value your advice and your birding experience.
~ Crystal ~

[Anonymous]

Yogi - with all due respect, don't make an assumption that because you are a photographer (just like me, by the way) that you were the one being referred to in Norm's post.  He indicated his displeasure, quite succinctly, towards that one particular photographer - not you, me, or anyone else on this forum.

It would really suck if you didn't post your photos, which are great and amazing instructional tools for those of us still learning about the finer points of photography.

People really need to learn how to read here, and that goes to everyone regardless of whether you're a photographer, a birder, or a birdographer.

[mr.sharp-photo]

People really need to learn how to read here, and that goes to everyone regardless of whether you're a photographer, a birder, or a birdographer.

i think you misunderstood. i didn't say that it was me that was being accused. rather, i feel that a few posts were accusing photographers in general of having poor birding etiquite. the one that rubbed me the wrong way was the poster who said that he would not disclose any owl/bird info to people who didn't have binoculars around their necks.

just a quick story for you. this summer, i bumped into Niloc a few times at the Brickworks. one day, i saw an elderly Asian woman and her granddaughter happily walking around a pond where a great blue heron was fishing. i started talking to them and found out the grandmother was from Japan and was a birder. she was incredibly happy to see all of these "exotic" birds she had only seen pictures of (in fact, Canada Geese were on the top of her must-see list. they are celebrity birds in Japan).  i asked them if they wanted to come with me for a walk to see the GBH that i normally shoot at my "secret" location. they excitedly said "please!", so i escorted an 80 year old woman and her granddaughter on the 20 minute walk to the pond. once we got there, they were not disappointed and they had a clear view of one of the lovelier GBHs that feed in the GTA. they were so happy and appreciative.

that's me and that's my MO. i post pictures to make the Misty's and Meghans for the board happy. to find that people come here with an unhappy attitude and want to keep "secrets" and don't trust posters or birders simply because they carry cameras - not what I'm about. so I will post my pictures on Flickr so I don't feel hurt by people on here not trusting photographers - these same posters who, i guarantee, come to this photo page or our photo galleries to view our pictures of owls and heronds and take pleasure in our efforts, but take displeasure in the fact that we have cameras and that a few bad apples in the photography bunch have ruined the photographer crop.

[accwai]

[...] i didn't say that it was me that was being accused. rather, i feel that a few posts were accusing photographers in general of having poor birding etiquite. the one that rubbed me the wrong way was the poster who said that he would not disclose any owl/bird info to people who didn't have binoculars around their necks. [...]
i post pictures to make the Misty's and Meghans for the board happy. to find that people come here with an unhappy attitude and want to keep "secrets" and don't trust posters or birders simply because they carry cameras - not what I'm about. so I will post my pictures on Flickr so I don't feel hurt by people on here not trusting photographers [...]

A couple of observations.  First, the real condition under which is bird was flushed was dubious.  One of the most serious limitations of "big long lens" is the long minimum focus distance.  That had been pointed out in the original thread.  Whoever is using such equipment won't be getting very close because the equipment doesn't allow it.  So the situation probably isn't exactly as Norm described.  But the stereotype being what it is, that must have been how it happened.  And of course, once the "flight shot" was taken, the photog had to post it to a forum to claim his/her prize.  Unfortunately, bird-in-flight shots are taken at incoming or tangent.  Outgoing flight shots do not work.  Norm himself might not be aware of his bias, but to photographers it's quite obvious.  I know of a few very good bird photographers that are deeply mistrustful of birders.  This kind of public display of bias doesn't help.  Like Attila said, all sides should learn now to read.  I would add that those who write should read their own stuff in an objective manner as much as possible before posting.

Second, the other poster you mention has a grand total of 4 posts in the forum, and he made it in the duration of a whole year.  So he can be considered a lurker at best.  If you post here to make somebody happy, stopping it is a negative thing.  Two wrongs don't make a right you know.  There are all kinds on the net.  Nothing one can do about that.

Andy

[KPaw]

You know, we are not going to fix the world and all its problems on this forum.  This disagreement is getting rather nasty so let's just all keep things in context here and take a deep breath.    Everyone deserves respect and consideration and the more heated this issue gets the farther away from the core issue it also goes ...

It's a beautiful day - summer has arrived in Toronto in November and everyone enjoy please...

Kind regards to all.

[Kin Lau]

Yogi... you're not the first, and you won't be the last.

You only have to look back at some of the exchanges on this board over the past few years to see a certain pattern with some users.

In the end, the only person that can make you upset, is yourself. Don't grant that power to anyone else.

[KPaw]

Yogi... you're not the first, and you won't be the last.

You only have to look back at some of the exchanges on this board over the past few years to see a certain pattern with some users.

In the end, the only person that can make you upset, is yourself. Don't grant that power to anyone else.

Totally well put!

[mr.sharp-photo]

thanks for the comments and opinions.
you guys are right and yes, i am being spiteful and probably "punishing" the wrong people. including myself.
got some great hooded merganser and bufflehead pictures this weekend but the joy of posting them is completely gone.
perhaps its temporary and hopefully it is.

[egret]

oh come on now Yogi!


I so enjoy all your photos

We do not paint everyone with the same brush

good and bad in all


Egret

[Moira]

I have been avoiding posting on this topic.  I totally agree with Kin Lau's comments and couldn't have said it better myself.  That is what I have been thinking as I have read the posts.  

Yogi, your enthusiasm and love of birds and photography is evident.  I hope you have a change of heart.  This forum is so enjoyable to me, both in reading what people are seeing while out and about, the great photographs that are posted and the witty banter.  It would be disappointing to have that taken away.  I have recently met a couple of people who post on here and am planning a day trip with a few others.  This is what this is about -- to me anyway.

You'll do what's best for you.  Hopefully, we'll see your pics again soon.

[skyviewer]

Yogi keep posting your pics man.  I posted this somewhere else in this forum but i think i will copy it here.

Why can't we all just get along. The people we should really be trying to annihilate are the ones who truly have no regard for nature and are bent on doing it harm.
We shoud all band together and form some group like "BIRD PHOTOG front of anti naturalist behaviour" or "birders united front of photography" or "scare my bird and die" or "BIRD THIS" or "bird lovers united"

So many choices

[strimackus]

I probably shouldn't stir the pot, especially since I'm not a frequent poster, though I am a frequent reader. But, when I read Norm's original post it reminded me of a post of his from awhile back about the island, in which he states:

I suggest that on the slim chance that someone may go over there to find these Shorebirds that you go early before the "Boys Of Summer" start trolling the beach or taking up residence in the bushes. The shorebirds today were constantly disturbed by these gay blades and also by aircraft taking off overhead.

(bolding mine, original post: http://outdoorontario.net/birds/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1910)

Is it really necessary to make these snide remarks about a few harmless gay guys. The guy strikes me as a little judgemental and intolerant. And, as accwai points out, the facts surrounding his "evil photographer" story seem a little questionable. I'd just ignore him Yogi.

I'm new to birding and have found most birders to be great people but there is definitely a subset of birders that need to take it easy. All too often I hear birders ranting about keeping dogs, children, rollerbladers, gay sunbathers, photographers, and anyone else not taking part in their particular form of appreciating the outdoors, out of their sacred birding spots. Chill out. We live in a city and if our parks didn't have such a diverse set of uses they would probably fall into disrepair, become unsafe, or cease to exist altogether. Talking to these people, educating them, and showing them what excites you about birds is a much more constructive approach.

I know this is a little off topic and doesn't apply to most people in this forum but I thought I'd throw it out there.

End of rant.

[Anonymous]

Strimackus - his reference isn't to gay sunbathers, but rather to gay people who engage in copulation in the bushes - a public act of indecency regardless of whether one is gay or not.

And yes, it does take place over at the islands.

With regards to everything else you mentioned, it isn't a matter of "keeping" areas to ourselves, rather it is about ensuring that those, especially those who enjoy birds in particular, act with a certain amount of respect not for ourselves but for the sake of the birds.

The one thing that concerns me the most is the question of how close is too close...with respect to "mammoth lenses" and their minimum distances, we talk about 10ft or more.  I'm 6'0" tall, and to envision someone only 2 of my body lengths away from an owl with at least 1' of lens added is still, in my opinion, too close.

I understand the concept involving full frame shots, but with that being said, with cropping and every other option available to us in post processing, I don't see the need to get that close to a bird.

Attila

[mr.sharp-photo]

Strimackus - his reference isn't to gay sunbathers, but rather to gay people who engage in copulation in the bushes - a public act of indecency regardless of whether one is gay or not.

And yes, it does take place over at the islands.

With regards to everything else you mentioned, it isn't a matter of "keeping" areas to ourselves, rather it is about ensuring that those, especially those who enjoy birds in particular, act with a certain amount of respect not for ourselves but for the sake of the birds.

The one thing that concerns me the most is the question of how close is too close...with respect to "mammoth lenses" and their minimum distances, we talk about 10ft or more.  I'm 6'0" tall, and to envision someone only 2 of my body lengths away from an owl with at least 1' of lens added is still, in my opinion, too close.

I understand the concept involving full frame shots, but with that being said, with cropping and every other option available to us in post processing, I don't see the need to get that close to a bird.

Attila

sorry, but i find your post offensive and inappropriate. i don't see you mentioning heterosexual couples copulating in the bushes. and i know women who go to the nude beach. so please keep your personal opinions regarding what's inappropriate or not to yourself. this does not belong in this forum.  i'm straight, but i find yours and Norm's posts to be ignorant and wrong.

all this talk about the lens....this magical owl-scaring lens. i thought to myself "what kind of photographer has a mammoth lens but needs to get close to its subject?"  i then realized - this photographer was likely some joe shmo who had a decent camera with a so-so macro-zoom mix. you can't get close with zoom lenses. you just can't. that's why you have magnification, so you don't have to get close. any half-baked photographer knows that. but someone using an entry-level zoom-macro would probably have blindly stumbled close.

if you label that person as a photographer, i'll label a guy tossing bread to ducks as a birder. after all, he is there to see them birdies.